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Markisha Motton: Could you please state your name for me please. Hattie Paulk: Hattie Paulk Markisha Motton: What do you for a living, or what did you do for a living? Hattie Paulk: I think I’m still here so I’m doing some things right now, um, right now I’m the director of the Champaign Schools family information center, I’m also an ordained minister. Markisha Motton: How long have you been doing it? Is it what you wanted to do? If not what did you want to do or what do you want to do? Hattie Paulk: In this particular position I’ve been working in there since 1998, I believe it was, and at the time it was when the schools of choice first started. So I feel pretty good about that, that I was one of the, I would say we were the founders, not necessarily the founders, but the trailblazers to do the family information center, the first one to be established in Champaign. So, what I do is I work with families from all over the world, with different ethnic groups, we do student assignments to everyone that comes to the Champaign school system comes through our building, those who are new, and that position was designed to address inequities that were in the school system, but that is part of um, and when we talk about bussing African Americans traditionally were forced to do most of the bussing, and as a result of African Americans filling a lawsuit the schools of choice came about where the school district, Champaign school district, agreed that this is one way that they may be able to rectify those wrongs that were done to those African Americans where the blunt of bussing was on their backs, so right now the schools of choice gives people an options whether or not they want their kids bussed or if they want to stay in their neighborhood, and that’s based on available seats. Markisha Motton: How did your education help you prepare you for what you do for a living today? Hattie Paulk: Well I think when I talk about education I think that you can also be educated in more ways that just a formal education. I think life in itself is an education. My education where I went on to, I went on to an all African American elementary school which I think was great. I had all African American teachers, which again I think was great, our neighbor hood was predominantly African Americans and what later on ended up people back in those days got married at a young age, and I was no exception to that. But later on realizing what I needed to do I, I went on and continued my college education, went to Parkland college and graduated from their, and went on to Eastern Illinois University where as a matter of fact I was named as one of eight in the country as an outstanding adult learner. Education I think, and then I’ve gone on and taken graduate courses, but I think education is the key for whatever you want to do in life. If in fact, you can’t read or can’t write then you really can’t make a big difference because you really don’t know what the world is doing around you, so education is the key that will open many doors of opportunity for both you and me. Markisha Motton: How long have you lived in Champaign-Urbana? Hattie Paulk: Well I was born and raised in Champaign-Urbana, I was born in 1942 but didn’t always stay here, and in fact my family was one of the first black settlers here when they came here on the railroad so and was the founder of the first church of God in Christ, they were the founders here so Champaign, I would say, I have been here most of my life I would say other then when I lived out east so if you count up those years I would say probably maybe about over 50 years. Markisha Motton: What church did you attend while you were growing up? Hattie Paulk: When I was growing up I attended Roe St. church of God in Christ, which is still in existence today and from there as a teenage I wanted to go to the church where many of my friends attended and I attended Salem Baptist Church and moved from Salem and went to New Jersey where I attended Fairy Avenue Methodist Church and then I ended up going to Germany and I attended a church in Germany also from there I came back to Champaign and ended up uniting with Mt. Olive Baptist church and then when the Lord had a calling on my life many of the Baptist didn’t believe in woman ministers I ended up going to the church of the living God where I am right now as an associate minister. Markisha Motton: What role do you think your church played a role in your life as a whole? Hattie Paulk: I won’t say that a building played an important role in my life, what I would say is the fact that I had a personal relationship with God himself is what really was significant to me, so I can say that the church did play a part because they are the ones who taught me the scriptures, they are the ones where we were able to fellowship together and to come together, but I think we got to remember that the most important thing is that when we are talking about how things are played into our lives is how God himself comes in and takes part of our lives and the church is in us so the church can be a building, but the building per se I think played an important part in my life, because as I said earlier many of the teenagers attended the same church and you want to be part of the group and that was where you went to. Markisha Motton: When you were a young child or teenager did the church say anything about racism or prejudice? Hattie Paulk: Yes, I was very active back during that time I would say probably around 57, 58, or maybe later Champaign Urbana was not integrated it was still segregated and one of the things that happened during my teen years African Americans were not aloud to sit at the lunch counters in Champaign Urbana and I was part of that movement that picketed WT grants but also JC Penny’s and picketing JC Penny’s was because they would not hire African American employee’s and one of the things that happened during that time where we had the sit ins and the marches and I was spit on and called the N-word, which was not necessarily nice, and I was one of the first persons to be hired at Jewel T which is Eisner’s where as was to integrate that position that was a lot when you are talking about integration and you being one of the trailblazers and you got to take things and sometimes you got to hold things in when people necessarily act that way towards you. Markisha Motton: You said that people called you the n-word and were very rude to you and I read an article where it said that they had said rude things and even went so far as to spit on you. How did that make you feel as a person for somebody to actually spit on you and call you mean words just for fighting for your people? Hattie Paulk: Well you know its not so much as fighting for our people to but you also want to look at the fact people will do that because of the fact that my color was different that someone else’s, my pigmentation of skin may heave been a little darker than someone else. One of the things, and I guess I could sum it up in this story as to how I felt, as I said to you earlier that I was one of the first African Americans to be hired at Eisner’s offices and it was a girl who was there that had, was a farmer and her barn had caught on fire and she came into work and she said, “My barn caught on fire, my hair got wet and it looked like niggers wool,” and then she looked at me and was like, “(gasp) I am so sorry.” And I said, “Don’t be sorry, you can’t help the way you are.” She said, “But you make it sound even worse.” And my words to her was, “Now you realize just how you sound.” So ignorance is what I look at. It hurt, it cut deep but I also realize that if I didn’t go threw it, then there wouldn’t be an opportunity for you to be sitting her at WILL doing this interview because African Americans at that time were not allowed to do that. And many times were not even allowed to go and sleep in the dorms at the University of Illinois, so I think that it hurt, but I also knew that I could not retaliate because we were a non violent movement. Markisha Motton: I want to ask you about your school experiences. What kind of grades when you went to an all black school? Hattie Paulk: I don’t remember all of my grades but I think I did ok. I could read I could write I could do math that made me different that what African Americans are experiencing now, but I know this that some of the things that I was taught in a predominantly black school, was first of all that we respected each other and you respected your elders you never heard of African American children talking back to adults. You never heard of African American children acting out because Champaign and Urbana at that particular time was really, the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child and that’s what it was, but I would say I had some teachers there were. One of them was Mrs. Cowmise, who taught for years here, Mr. Stratton, who Stratton School is named after, and I could go on but, I think that I got a good education from them. Many may, when we think about integration and people think about separate but equal. And I couldn’t really compare as to what my schooling was, were I live and then where others may have lived of a different color, because I was not exposed to what they were exposed to. However I think that once I went to the middle school, and its ironic that at the time I went its ironic that at the time I went to the school your going to now, was the first class to really integrate that school. It was a new school at that particular time. Markisha Motton: Do you think that your grades changed when you think, when you started going to that integrated school? And if they changed why do you think that was? Hattie Paulk: I think that there was a change, and I think that had to do with what the teachers expectation was, and give you an example of that, when I was at Franklin I was told don’t take college prep courses. To take home economics and those kind of classes because I was not college material. So, therefore, if in fact your not telling me that I’m college material then that means you don’t think very much of me of what my potentials could be. I think that life and death is in the power of our tongue, and if you speak than you will do well and I think that’s the same way with teachers. If teachers expect you to do poorly, than more than likely it will be a self fulfilling prophesy where you do do poorly. However, if in fact teachers will say to you that you can do it and you encourage the person to do that and I’m kind of reminded of a girl who wanted to go into nursing. What had happened was that the teacher went and got her a biology book, where she had never seen that book before, and gave it to the girl and said see look at this you can’t do this, therefore the girl changed her major and did not go into nursing based on what someone told her that she could not do. Because none of us have learned anything until we are taught but to automatically look at a book and say because of the color of your skin your not able to take nursing. I think that’s a disservice to any child. Markisha Motton: How did that make you feel when someone was so ignorant to tell you that you can’t, you have to take the home economics classes because your not college material, how did that make you feel? Hattie Paulk: I felt terrible, but then I thought some years later I would like to see him and tell him, uh-huh I was college material after all. Markisha Motton: So do you feel that you got a good education? Hattie Paulk: In what, in a black school? Markisha Motton: No, in general. Hattie Paulk: I think so, many things that I didn’t learn that I should have learned later on in life I had to learn it, and I think that as long as we live we do learn and there is always education processing. None of us know everything so I think that the education that I received in the public schools were ok. I cant say that “boy it was the bomb”, when I do a comparison with what my kids have learned I look at my kids education and I say that that’s the bomb and its all of that and a bag of chips. Markisha Motton: (laughter) Were there cases where you felt discriminated against in any white schools you went to. Hattie Paulk: Sure. Markisha Motton: Were there any specific stories that you have for that from schools that you went to. Hattie Paulk: that I could share as to I how I felt integration when I went to a mixed school; Markisha Motton: Yes Hattie Paulk: Want me to tell you about your school, which is Franklin Markisha Motton: Yes Hattie Paulk: Ok, one of the things was that we had to walk to school. The other thing is that we used to have an activity room that was upstairs at Franklin, and in that activity room we used to have a jukebox where you could play music and you could dance, and you would have white kids on one end and black kids on another. When you would eat lunch you would have white kids at one table black children on another, but when it came to I would love to be a cheerleader we as an African American were not afford that, the boys were able to play basketball, but as far as the girls that was not the case. I never saw a black president at Franklin or a Treasurer or those kinds of things. The only thing that I can remember that we did was embroidery, and if you look at embroidery I think that it was good to learn, but what does that say, does that say to me that the only thing I could do was sewing and cooking since that was the only things I was exposed to. So I think that yeah I experienced the discrimination and again the teacher who told me that was from Franklin. Markisha Motton: Were there things that happened in your high school days that shaped, were there life shaping changes that you went through in high school? Hattie Paulk: Yes, and that would have been, we used to call it Champaign high school, and it’s now Champaign Central high school, and I would say that yes there were some things that changed my life, things that I can remember reading a story about how you can be driving alone and you can be hypnotized if you don’t have any things you look off at rather than just looking off in the front, so you have to look off and on, and so that was something that seems minor but one of those things that was a life learning thing for me that even though I was looking off on something it did teach me on what I needed to be focused on. Markisha Motton: I noticed that you said that you in a paper that you were boycotting for the JC Penny thing, did Mr. John Lee Johnson help you with that. Hattie Paulk: Yeah he was involved with that but it wasn’t just him and me it was several, one guy we used to call him squirt but his name was William Yancy, and the ministers that were around, pastor Wims at that time, you had many people that were involved, but as far as many that are here in Champaign here now, I think John Lee was an activist and continues to be one. But it wasn’t just him it was Terry Townsend you could go on where many did the same thing boycotting was for us one of the ways to changing a change in Champaign high school. Another place where African Americans were not allowed to eat, they used to call it the dime store was SS Kresky’s, you were not allowed to sit at the lunch counter. Another place downtown which exists now is Carmen’s and today I have never been to Carmen’s and I wonder sometimes is that a thing that goes back from when you know back when it was segregated and I’ve never been in there and have never had the desire as old as I am now that I would want to go. And your probably saying where is Carmen’s at, ok if you went straight down Washington street you remember that restaurant that you run right into on Neil St. that’s Carmen’s, I’ve not been in that store since then never been in there because it was at that particular time it was segregated. Maybe it’s just a thing on me that I will need to overcome, maybe ill just go in to say look I’m gonna integrate this place. Markisha Motton: When you were in school what did your parents talk to you about as far as school work did they have high expectations for you in school? Hattie Paulk: I think they did, they said do and learn all that you can remembering back then my mother had a, I think she may have finished high school I can’t remember exactly, my dad didn’t have a real, he may have finished up to about the ninth grade or so, but they had high expectations of us that we were to go to school listen and learn. Those were the keys they told me. Markisha Motton: Did your school experience put road blocks to your goals? Hattie Paulk: Oh for sure, you know but then too the road blocks were there but that did not stop me from completing my goals, the road block was that I wasn’t college material so therefore I wasn’t geared toward college prep courses, those were road blocks. But the thing is road blocks can be moved. Markisha Motton: What people helped you to shape who you are? Did you have any certain role models? Hattie Paulk: Yes, I did. I would say that it was my grandmother, her name was Amy Chipman, she was, I would like to say that she was a business woman that she would take laundry and do laundry in her home and she had a work ethic that she would work very hard, so I think my grandmother. And then my mother was a role model because I saw how my mother would take in children, take in people who didn’t have what we had and she was always willing to share. And she too was a person, I wouldn’t say stingy, but she wouldn’t let people play with her money, if you owed her you had to pay her her money. She accumulated houses and was able to become an entrepreneur in her own right, being able to do that. And then my father, you know I could look around and say other people, but I think my immediate family was my role model when I saw how hard my father would work, and he was my role model as to what a man is supposed to do, you know we as women we look for men to do certain things. I saw my father and I saw how he worked. He brought his check home to my mother and gave it to her and she took care of the household and we never had a hungry day. Then my father would take us to the movie on Saturday and bring our friends and stuff. It was a special time. I think my father, my mother, and my grandmother were really my role models. Markisha Motton: What were the expectations for you around school? Hattie Paulk: When I was in school as to what the expectation was? Markisha Motton: mm-hmm Hattie Paulk: That I would finish high school. I think that is what they could see, not necessarily that there was going to be college beyond that because they themselves had not been exposed to that. But I think what is was is that I would complete high school. Markisha Motton: What was your attitude toward learning and what did you think you got this perspective from. Hattie Paulk: My attitude toward learning was that, to be all you can be and kinda like a mind is a terrible thing to waste and I think that goes back with in the 60’s and Martin Luther King and that movement and how important that was and even the Brown vs. Brown decision that education was important and my attitude is that we can do anything that we can do if we put our mind to it and then you think in terms that we can do anything through Christ who strengthens you. Markisha Motton: Were there any goals that you made when you were a young child as far as education for when you got older? Hattie Paulk: Back then I think my goal probably would have been that I just finish high school, and then to get married and have these children and live in a house with a picket fence because we watched so much of “Leave it to Beaver” and those kinds of programs. So I think that’s what my program was. Markisha Motton: So both your parents raised you? Hattie Paulk: Yes Markisha Motton: Were there other people who helped raised you and what were their expectations for school? Hattie Paulk: My mother and father were together and they raised me and I was raised in a house with my brother and a cousin, who was a brother, but his mother was killed and parents raised him. And as far as others I can look at people who were in my community everyone helped raised us. I can remember one lady named Magabel Johnson who lived down the street, who used to play ball with us and your neighbors help raised you. If you acted out they would check you, whip you, and see in the African American culture you may say whipping or I’m gonna beat you or I’m gonna beat the death out of you or I’m gonna kill you. That doesn’t mean they are literally going to kill you, it means they are going to straighten you out. And they would whip you and send you home to your parents and then your parents would whip you. Or they would call and tell your parents that you acted up. So I think it was a community effort to raise the people in our community. Markisha Motton: Were there, um, any points in your life that you experienced prejudice or racism at a school? Hattie Paulk: Yes Markisha Motton: And what were they? Hattie Paulk: Oh it would take me a whole two days to tell you all of that. But I think when I look back at job situations that I experienced racial discrimination that really really bothered me. I could say one that was at Chanute Air Force base was where the, I had more education than this guy, had more experience working with children, yet and still he was hired for the job because hew was white and I was black, and that was just one of many things that I had experienced. But one of the things, and I also know this, if in fact you as a people and we as a people being discriminated against you just don’t lay down on the road and take it you need to get up and you need to fight for what’s right, and that’s an experience I once had because one of the things that this guy did, I had the education, and they, to give me a remedy, they hired me but as his assistant, and he pulled out a gun and held it up when I asked for a tape measure, and he said to me “I’m gonna get you.” After pulling out this gun I said, “when you get me you better get me good.” So one of the things that I made up in my mind a long time ago, I will not under no circumstances allow someone to discriminate against me when I know its not right. And if I am wrong I’m gonna keep my mouth shut and move, but in the same token I don’t want to ever be guilty of doing something to someone when that is not right. But I think we as a people and that’s what its all about, regardless of, lets get away from all the ethnicity, but as a people we’ve got to stand up for what is right. If it’s a fact that a child is being abused we have got to stand up for that, or if we see a child that’s hungry we have got to stand and feed that child. If a child doesn’t have clothing you’ve got to stand up for what is right and that means you’ve got to cloth that child. So even with racial discrimination that we experience, we have got to be that we stand up for what is right regardless of what the color or the national origin that you come from or age and we need to do what s right. Markisha Motton: How did your family and friends talk about racism throughout your life? Hattie Paulk: Some of the things that I used to hear is “Don’t you trust those white people, you know they are not going to do what’s right” and I think we as a black people we had racism in our culture as well. And one of the things that were told, is that you watch out, you never really trusted and I think that was really put into many of us as youngsters and I’m grateful that we do learn as we get older that some of the things that they said were not necessarily true. So I think one of the things that I remember being taught was not to trust them, not necessarily that they were bad, but my mother my father I should say, his mother was half white and he lived in Mississippi. And one of the things that happened is that, my father was the kind of man if you called him one of the n-words he wasn’t going to turn the other cheek he was going to retaliate and he would hit and that. In this one particular time in Grenada, Mississippi my father was called the n-word and he beat the guy and his grandfather who was white as that time put him on a bus and sent him up north to his father because he knew he would be lynched in Mississippi so one of things as a result of that, my father used to tell us that story all the time. Then another uncle who was from down south who came up, they had said that he had been kicked by a mule but in essence he had beaten and killed by a group of white men. Those are things that not necessarily that they say, but if you tell that story long enough you get the point where I better be careful as to what I say and who I associate with. Markisha Motton: Did your parents talk about racism in the school? Did they ask you questions to find out were people being racist toward you at school? Hattie Paulk: They wouldn’t have to ask me the questions I think we were always forthcoming because I think that our parents had taught us that if in fact things were not right you got some concerns then you tell us about it and I think that’s what we did we let our parents know when things were not right. Markisha Motton: Did your parents talk about any of the ongoing civil rights battles to end segregations? Were they one of the activists? Hattie Paulk: I don’t know how active they were in doing that. I do know that my mother supported us when were involved in that. You look back in the 20’s and 30’s when my mother and them were born and raised and we didn’t talk a lot about integration. But if you look in the 50’s and 60’s is when it really came into play and at that time I think they were really supporters especially of the movement of Martin Luther King, they were all supportive of that, I remember them saying go and whatever little money they could give out and help with that movement. Markisha Motton: What did you know about the struggle to integrate the schools that were segregated in the Brown vs. Board of Education? Hattie Paulk: Ok, I know about the Board of Education, where this child had to pass by a school that was closer to her and go to an all black school. Therefore, that was what it was all about in a nut shell. But, then we look at when we talking about the same thing here in Champaign and Urbana. I know many kids who went to an all integrated school but I didn’t have that luxury, later on in life they did but ours were segregated school. Later on we got to go to integrated schools in middle school, but I don’t know if I am answering you your question or not with that but I do remember the Brown vs. Brown Board of Education. I was 12 years old when that took place so that affected me as young person when you’re talking about 12 years old. I look at my granddaughter right now who is 11 and we took her to Memphis to the museum down there, the civil rights museum down there, and one of the things that she did, there’s one part of it where you get on a bus and when you sit on that bus it will say nigger get on the back of the bus, and it scared her so that she cried and she cried and we had to take her out of the museum and she couldn’t go in because it had such an impact on her little life and she’s 11 years old today she will not go back into that museum after experiencing that on that bus situations. So I think that when you look at education and the things that young people go through it can be pretty frightening and its not going to be something that you can get over overnight but its going to take years of getting over. Markisha Motton: Were there other people around you talking about the issues of Brown vs. Board of Education? Hattie Paulk: I would say my parents in the school to a degree. I don’t remember if you are talking about many many years ago, but at 12 years old they may not have said so much or I was in my own world jumping ropes and all of that kind of stuff that it really made a big big impact on us but I think down the line you did see the impact that had taken place. Markisha Motton: Did any of your schools change in a meaningful ways during the time you were in school? Hattie Paulk: Did any of my schools change in a meaningful way? Markisha Motton: mm-hmm. Hattie Paulk: Can you give me a little more specifics on that? Markisha Motton: Did your school change like if you look back at the schools you went to today like have they changed in a meaningful way, like are they better today? Hattie Paulk: In one instance if we look at where we are as a people African American children it may be worse now in many ways and I only say that in and it’s hard to generalize when I look at some of the reports that I’m reading where African Americans have the highest suspension rates in the schools. We did not have that before. When I look at the number of African Americans who cannot read, I didn’t see that before. When I look at the number of African Americans or young people I’m talking about are disrespectful to the elders we did not have that before. So I think with some things we lost right now. We don’t have as many black role models that you all can look up to as we had before. We saw the black teachers, we saw the black doctors, we got some that are in the area now, but if you look around do we really have that many African American professional doctors and lawyers and those kinds of things. I think we’ve lost some ground and even with businesses in Champaign and Urbana, I think that we lost. Back when I was goring up, there were all kind of African American business in the community and now when we look you can name them probably on one hand. So did it make it better that’s anybody’s guess. We can go to schools that’s integrated but dose that mean because I go to school or I am allowed to go to school with a white child does that because something with this while child got is going to rub off on me and make me better. It could work the opposite, something I got could rub off on this white child as well. So I guess when I look at things being better, I don’t think we have arrived yet and we’ve got a long way to go but some of the things that I see happing in the schools with African American children disturbs me. So I think that we need to go back to a lot of the things that, see I guess what I am looking at is if you look at everybody says that some things are better, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we got moved into different times because you learn more, you’ve got the computer knowledge, you’ve got all of that that you’ve got going as an African American young lady, but some of the things, and I know you know that you see, happening with our race as far as character African American’s were never on drugs and stuff like they are now, se may have been unemployed but we used to find our jobs and make our jobs and we used to take care of our families. We’ve got a high percent of young girls that are pregnant that are not married, so I think we lost something. It was a disgrace back then if you had a baby and weren’t married you would be ostracized, but now its coming to be common play where we have got young girls, African American that’s 13 or 14 years old indulging in adult stuff that they shouldn’t be, then we got a problem because its babies raising babies and you know everybody’s “aww its so cute”, but its not like a doll that you can put down and pick up, you got that for a life time that you got to deal with. So I think integration has helped but we can blame integration for the woes that’s in our community in our African American families right now. I think sometimes I know Jawan and Fuji thinks it conspiracy to destroy the black boy. And when I look at the number of African American boys that are being suspended, we don’t know if it’s a conspiracy or if somewhere along the line we have lost it, but we got to get it back and we got to get our kids back. Where that they can make a difference, where if they don’t get the education that you need then what will happen? You will have lost a race. Go to Africa and you see the accomplishments that Africans are making in that country and we are part of that continent so we need to get back and get to character and get the things that we used to do and we need to bring some of that back into play. Markisha Motton: Now I just want to ask you a variety of questions. What is the relationship with you and Mr. John Lee Johnson for boycotting in making changes for African American children. Hattie Paulk: what was the, you mean as far as making it back then? I think we were all on the same page that you wanted what was best for our people at that particular time. I would say that is what John Lee’s agenda is, was and is now and I think that he and I both have that in common that we want to make a change that will be a betterment for the community where all children will benefit from it. Markisha Motton: What grade were you in when the teacher told you that you weren’t college material? Hattie Paulk: I believe that was going into the 9th grade. 6,7,8, Yeah I think that may have been going into the 8th or 9th grade. I know I was at Franklin and I know it was right down there from the gym where he told me at that’s where the class was so I do remember that pretty vividly. Markisha Motton: What do you think of the school systems today? Hattie Paulk: I think of the school system today, I think that there are efforts being made to try and improve things and I think that, that will continue but I think that it we have got to be committed to wanting to make a change in our school system. You can get a new leader but the leader only as strong as the Indians, well I won’t say Indian’s because I don’t want to offend anybody, because one of the things that we used to say is everybody want to be the chief but nobody wants to be the braves. But the people who are out in the trenches who are education our children its going to take a commitment form each one of them to make a difference and to want to make a difference. So I think changes are coming about changes can be good if in fact its going to be the betterment of everybody’s situation. Markisha Motton: Do you think that the classes are integrated? Are there some classes where there are mostly white students or some with mostly black students? Do you guys focus on that as a school district? Hattie Paulk: Yes, when we talk about focusing on that, that is what my job is all about to make sure that they are integrated. What we have is, you look at over the past three years as to what the African American population was and you average that out. It was 35% and you can have 35% plus or minus 15% of African American in a school. So you can have up to 20% or no more than 50%. So therefore you integrate the schools but once they are in the schools it’s up to the principles to do the integration in the classroom. Because we can integrate whether you’re going into the schools, but then the schools themselves can turn around and segregate the classroom, because you could assign all white or all black. That part of the schools of choice, we don’t have anything to do with it. So it’s a matter of the principle being committed that will ensure or make every effort to try to integrate those classrooms. Markisha Motton: Ok, what, how, do you think, have you been in the classes that are in the unit 4 school district and when you go in there can you tell the difference if you were just to walk into two different classrooms if you could tell which one is honors and which one is the regular class? Hattie Paulk: Yes Markisha Motton: Because I am in the honors program and there are only like… Hattie Paulk: 2 or 3 blacks? Markisha Motton: No there are like 4 of us, so how do you feel about that? Do you think that when you were a child that more African American would be in that class? Hattie Paulk: You mean if we were in a black school? Markisha Motton: mm-hmm Hattie Paulk: I think so because you would only have that as your frame work, but if we are talking about the gifted program which you are in, and we are talking about the honors, that’s what you look at, they are making some progress and we have a long way to go. But yes I could into a classroom right now and look at two classrooms and I could see which one is the gifted and the non-gifted. And again I had two granddaughters that were in the gifted program, and in one instance my granddaughter and another girl were the only two African American girls in that class. And later on my one granddaughter was the only one in her class. And so how does that make you feel that you see, I’m switching it around to you, that you see you’re the only, there’s only 4 of you in that class? How does that make you feel? Markisha Motton: Well, I feel good that I am in it but then I have two classes that are regular classes and I wish that more of my African American peers could be in the honors program because they are smart enough and they are just as intelligent as any of my white peers. But I think that they could try harder and if they did that that we would have a majority over the whites. Hattie Paulk: Right, one of the things that you may or may not be aware of, see it used to be that in order to get into the honors program that you would be nominated by a teacher, or the parent. So African American’s didn’t have the luxury. So what Mary Muller has done now is that she is testing all first graders to see if they are eligible to go into the gifted classroom. But see one of the things that I don think has been addressed, as your bringing it up, is the gifted as far as it is in the middle school, because that doesn’t happen. Markisha Motton: What made you want to work for the family service after being treated so poorly by the local schools as a student when you were a child? Hattie Paulk: You know what, I worked for the school district before and I thought that it was very important to have someone in there representing African American children that was gonna look out for them too. And I worked at Columbia school which was predominantly black at that time and did a lot of things there. As a matter of fact as I took this job it was not a job I was looking for. Other people asked me to take the job because they felt that I would do well working with other segments of the community. And I must say that it has been an enjoyable and exciting and different job so that much I am glad to have been one of the, to first start something like that. Markisha Motton: Who was the person who most inspires you what to do, is it the children or the background? Hattie Paulk: Children, oh no doubt about it the children, not the background it’s the children. I have raised over 100 foster children and four of my own and one of the things, you know some things you are just passionate about, and I am really passionate about kids. It irks me if people mistreat a child, that is just it gores me to the inside. If a child is mistreated in any kind of way, I’m gonna be the first one there to say, “hey, no don’t do this to this kid.” I don’t want to see a child hungry, I don’t want to see a child cold. A child came in the family information center and didn’t have a pair of socks on, I didn’t wait for the child to say “can you get me a pair a socks?” I saw a need and I try to provide that need and that’s what we have got to do. You don’t have to say do you need me to do this, if you see a need then you take on that responsibility to go and say here let me help out. And I think that is what it is, children I think is our future and what we deposit in them will mean what we will get out. And when I look at children, you got some people who will add to your life, subtract to your life, multiply or divide you. So if you can’t add, multiply, then don’t divide me out and that’s the way I look at it when we talk about children. Markisha Motton: In what year did you receive the outstanding adult award? Why did you receive this award? Hattie Paulk: Ooh, I think that might have been in 1989 and that was, I went to adult education in at Eastern Illinois University, and I was raising 8 foster children and four of my biological children and going to school and working at the same time. And Eastern Illinois University nominated me when they saw all the kids that came to my graduation when I graduated from Eastern. We had almost a balcony full. And they saw that and they had this nomination and they nominated me as one of their outstanding adult learners. And the was going to school and being able to overcome so many obstacles and I was chosen, there were 8 and I was one of those 8 in the nation to be honored. To get that kind of honor, to go to Washington, D.C. to get the accolades from Barbra Bush and the senators that were here, Simon, he is dead now, but Terry Bruce and all of those guys here is peoples senators that you would never meet. But here it is a little girl from a segregated community to be honored like that in Washington, D.C. and then to be on TV and someone that saw it knew me because they used to be my neighbor and called in to a radio station and just to hear someone from home, it was an honor. But also to be able to take my foster child who is Sienna Igorinevy, who is a girl from African and we all went to DC and was honored there and all my children came. That is what I got the award for just being an outstanding learner. And then on top of that I got to go back to Charleston to speak to adult and continuing ahead their big conference and being able to share with them the things I went through and had to over come. Part of that I told you was that situation at Chanute, and still be able to get my education I think that was something in itself. Markisha Motton: What made you want to be a minister? Hattie Paulk: Well you know what I just at one time enjoyed at being a member but I remember getting, and you can read this in a book that is printed about me, I am featured in one of these books, a new one that was released this summer called Women empowered by Shelia Downer. D-O-W-N-E-R, I think is the way it is spelled. But one of the things that happened is that I had saw a vision, He said “Do you promise to serve me?” and I said, “Lord I promise to serve you till I die.” And when he said that to me that is when I went forward to be minister to minister on his behalf. Markisha Motton: What made you want to be a civil rights activist. Hattie Paulk: I like to fight for what is right, and I think it may be something that innate in me that I believe in doing what’s right and I believe in the civil rights movement. So I think that is what really spurred me on and to really make a difference, when I got spit on I thought that me getting spit on was going to make it better for you my children, my grandchildren, and my children’s children, so that is one thing that really spurred me on. Markisha Motton: How do you think the two jobs connect? Hattie Paulk: Oh I think that being a minister and being a, the director of the family information center, it interconnects not so much with the religious part, but I think it puts a lot of compassion in your heart and you got to have compassion to work with so many families and be able to comfort them and do things that help them. And most of all I think it gives you character and that teaches you, character I think is, what people don’t see, you know if nobody’s not lookin you gonna still have that, that kind of character. And with me in that position and as a minister I’m not gonna compromise I’m gonna treat you the same way I would treat anybody else and I’m not gonna allow, if I’m doing an assignment, I’m not gonna assign somebody because its your friend or its my friend. Everybody’s going to be treated equally across the board, and I think being a minister and being a child of God that that is something I would never ever want to bring any open shame unto the Lord. If I compromise than he would be put to shame, and I’m not gonna do that. Markisha Motton: Do your grandchildren or any of your children attend the unit 4 school district? Hattie Paulk: Yes, I had four children that went through unit 4 school district. I have a daughter who is in education, was in premed and then went on to education. She works over at the pavilion, her name is Lisa. Then I had another daughter, who was Natalie, who went into education and decided that’s not what she wanted so she became a beautician so she went all the way through college, did her student teaching and decided that was not for her. So she owns Anointed Hand’s beauty salon. Markisha Motton: She does my auntie’s hair. Hattie Paulk: Does she? (laughs) Then I’ve got my son, he was the, went through Champaign schools and he’s an attorney in New Jersey. As a mater of fact, he was the founder of the first owned an operated African American internet provider in the country called Black Cyberspace, and that’s my son. Then I’ve got a young daughter, who is different than any of them, and she’s in education and she works at the pavilion with children with special needs. I’ve got, lets see, a number of grandsons, they didn’t go through Champaign they went through Urbana. My oldest grandson is Kevin and he is in Milliken University and this is his last year, he will graduate in May. And then I’ve got another grandson that’s down in Utica, Mississippi going to End of CD CD 2 Start Hattie Paulk: ok the teacher called my granddaughter lazy and one of the things that when you’re calling an African American child lazy that has been a stigma because that had been to the point where people had said they were shiftless and lazy. And some of the things that they had some potential and one of them had just come out of a regular class room where she was making straight “A”s and then she goes into a gifted and in a matter of two weeks she’s gone to straight “F”s and we don’t know what all that happened but I think that my granddaughter always felt that the teacher wasn’t fair to her perception because her perception is her reality. But she ended up putting them in Cannon and the three girls are there now and the pre-K speaks Chinese now she’s been taught Chinese and she’s three years old spelling well and all those kinds of things, and the other two that are at Cannon now have just they’ve excelled and their self esteem have gone up and now their excited about going to school and don’t want to miss school. So that’s made a difference for them. I also have a grandson that’s in Korea right now who’s in the gifted program over there. He’s very intelligent. His name is Tre. I don’t get to see Tre I haven’t seen him in almost two years now because he’s been over there. So, I’ve got quite a few gr… I’ve also got another granddaughter who’s two years old in Philadelphia. My grandkids went to, the older ones went to Urbana and the one went to Urbana where they had that one program where they were teaching boys how to be assertive African American, it was an African American class at King school and the only thing about that, and I think later in life as it goes they’ll look at that that they taught them how to be self assertive to stand up for what they believe in to speak up and then you go into a school system that is different and are that your taught that in the elementary school and it’s acceptable for you to speak up and talk about black history and the right to be able to voice your opinion but then you go over to another system and then what they end up doing is kicking you out of school. So, you can learn how to be assertive on one hand and being black and being a black male you’re this and all of that and a bag of chips and you go over there in another instance and they do not accept that and you cannot speak up. It’s kind of like my daughter and granddaughter that’s in Cannon when she does logic and they do teach logic there too, and I had that when I was in college but to be able to think and do and to think that thing through you may teach one thing but then you need to find out what the results are going to be when they go and move out of king school into a regular system and that can be devastating to the kids. My concern would be that you’ve got all of these black males that they could end up being problems and end up into the system and I mean the jail system so those are things we need to get our black boys right now and let them be all they can be. Markisha Motton: Are the Champaign Urbana schools better to you? Hattie Paulk: I don’t know if the schools themselves were better… you may have better teachers at a certain school than you do at another school. I think it’s a good as your teacher you know in Urbana, Urbana does not have the resources that Champaign has but none of them can jump up and shout as far as African Americans and the projects. They’re getting there but they have not arrived yet. Because if they had, they would not have the civil rights cases that’s been before us. Markisha Motton: As a child did you like the white school, black school or the integrated school? Hattie Paulk: the black school because I could do things and not be held back because of the color of my skin. Markisha Motton: What obstacles did you go through and school referring to to high school. Hattie Paulk: Well I think the high school… I was not involved in the extra curricular activities that kids may have the opportunity of that now, but back then they really didn’t have that. One of the things that, this may seem silly but as simple as when we were growing up, we as black people get ashy when it gets cold your legs get ashy but it’s a thing as simple as lotion being provided in the middle school was never provided for us. We used to have to go into the home economics room and get some Crisco and put it on our legs and stuff so that it wouldn’t be ashy. But that would be something as simple as that so I miss being in the African American schools because it was those kinds of things, and that’s just something simple that comes to mind that was provided for us. Nothing but Vaseline was there for us. Markisha Motton: Were there any obstacles that you remember they were either hurtful or were hurtful at the time and they made a difference later in your life? Hattie Paulk: Perhaps I guess that one of the things that came to mind was hurtful is that eating lunch you know back then everybody wanted to eat lunch at least African Americans did everybody to be able to buy a lunch, you know you could get a hot lunch and if you could buy a lunch that meant you had money but we were never afforded that. What we did was we always brought our lunch and right to this day I hate because I also had ham sandwiches because that’s what I had everyday throughout high school. Now I look back over that and say it wasn’t so bad because at least I ate and we it was something that my mom and dad could afford and that’s what we had. Nowadays kids don’t have to bring a lunch that schools will provide a free lunch, for a hot lunch. Markisha Motton: are there any major changes that you had in high school? Hattie Paulk: I think my body changed. So those were major changes. Markisha Motton: ok. I’m done asking questions but my partner Veronica would like to ask a couple of questions if that would be ok with you. Veronica: I have just a couple for you. When you said that you were moving from church to church from Salem you left and then you came back and then you joined another one why do you think you kept joining different churches? Hattie Paulk: I think that if I look at the when I was at Grove street and when I mentioned when I was going to Salem, but when that the girls that I hung out with went to Salem, and I went Salem because of that. The other instance is when I went to another church was because I was not in Champaign. I had moved to another area. Coming back the reason I changed churches from Mount Olif to the church of the living God was because I had been called to preach and at that particular time the pastor said if you do it it would be bad for you bad for the kids bad for the church and I said to him, I love you but I love God more and I have to be obedient to him. And that is when I changed churches, to do what God had called me to do. Veronica: Do you believe that when your teacher told you that you didn’t have the material to go to college did that hurt you or make you a better person? Hattie Paulk: I think that it hurt, but I think it made me a better person. Because when someone tells you you can’t you have to be determined to now that you can. And it’s not what you say about me, it’s about what I say about myself and I say that I can do it. Veronica: when you said that you didn’t see African Americans doing being treasurers and cheerleaders and presidents and that they had different groups for the whites and the African Americans do you think that it’s still happening today. Hattie Paulk: Well, I think that it could probably be. I think that you would be probably the one that could answer that better. When I look at some of the issues that are taking place at Champaign Central when it came to being on the cheerleading team and some of the things that came out of that where the teachers were choosing not based on their ability but based on the color of their skin and that was a big controversy. Because some of the comments that were made by the teachers made some of these kids look bad, so I can only relate to what I heard from one girl, Yvette Young’s daughter. And she was a high school student, I think Whitney graduates this year if I’m not mistaken. She graduates. And she went through a lot of that. I guess I would turn it back on you what do you see… do you see a difference now? Veronica: I really I think there are more caucasions on there being that they were probably brought up to saying this is what you do this is what needs to be done but I think that there’s not as many African Amricans given a chance. They believe that they’re not qualified to do that because that’s not what.. you know. Hattie Paulk: when you say they’re not qualified who do you say they’re not qualified. Do you think the teachers? Veronica: right now, I think I go to Franklin. I think a lot of the teachers give you that confidence that you need but that child needs to believe that they can do that for them to actually do the job and do it right. I think that’s the problem. Kids don’t have enough confidence in themselves. Hattie Paulk: Ok. So how do you think they can still get that confidence? Veronica: Through the family like if you got close ties with your mom or dad or your brothers or sisters or even friends. Hattie Paulk: OK Veronica: And I have one more question. When I was doing research on you… Hattie Paulk: you did research on me? Veronica: When I was doing research I found out that a lady had married a Caucasian man and their child was biracial and that on the form it didn’t have an other spot because they had taken that off because the child left behind situation. Do you think that is helping that child or do you think that it’s hurting the child, Hattie Paulk: I think that personally, because I know they did that because of no child left behind and that was a requirement but personally I think that hurts the child. Because the child needs to know…if you don’t know where you came from then you don’t know where you’re headed. If you don’t know… just like with me you need to know who you are what were you came from. See we can be as separate as the fingers on my hand, but as a fist in a common cause and that common cause is our children and you’ve got to implant in them who they are. If in fact my mom’s white and my daddy’s black how can I chose what I am when I’m both. You see what I mean. So that’s like my father. My father’s mother was white and she was mixed her father was white and her mother was black. So how could she say well I’m black , but if we go back into history usually the mother will determine what you are. If you’re black any portion of black in you, then usually what they’ll say is that you’re black. I think that you need to be able to say that your black or that I’m white or whatever, but growing up , my kids we had a portion of white, black and Indian. This guy named Stagamo who was our neighbor was Polish and I remember my son saying Stagamo, I’m better than you because you’re only white and I’m black and I’m white and I’m Indian, so I’m three times better than you. So, that was a way of him. He was about six years old. But that was a way of letting him know that I’m proud of everything that I am and who I am. Veronica: Me being more than 2 different races, because I’m black, Indian, Irish and Caucasian, and it’s really hard for me to cope with different races because here I am with the African American group they’re telling me that I’m not black I’m mixed or I’m too white or too Indian but when I get over her with the Caucasian groups, I don’t know how to react because they’re pushing me away but over here I don’t know what to say because I can’t benefit from everything that they’re saying. Hattie Paulk: And you’ve got a benefit from being who you are. You know what I mean, take what you can from each group and use it for your benefit because the color of your skin does not determine what you can do. It’s kind of like that story that this man took his granddaughter to the circus. And when he went to the circus, they were blowing up balloons they blew up a red balloon and white balloon and a black balloon and the little girl went to her grandpa and grandpa being a wise old man she said to him grandpa they were putting the helium in the balloons and she says grandpa can that black balloon go as high as that white balloon go as high as the red balloon. And grandpa looked at his little grandbaby and said baby it’s not the color that determines how high you go, it’s the stuff on the inside of you. So the stuff that’s on the inside of you determines how high you can go. Veronica: I’ve never heard of that. That was good. I’ve never heard of that. Hattie Paulk: Yeah but it’s the stuff on the inside of you not the color. So you remember that one. Veronica: I have like a couple more. How much did you know about the Brown V. Board of education? Hattie Paulk: now or then? Veronica: then Hattie Paulk: other than what we heard on the news, not a whole lot. As you grew older you learned more about it. Same with you. You all may not have known as much about it but as you begin to study about it you learn more about it. But it’s not many of kids realize now how is it integration came about. They just know it happened. But as you begin to research it, you learn more about it. Veronica: why do you say going to an integrated school was a luxury and why was it a luxury. Hattie Paulk: Did I say it was a luxury? I don’t think it was a luxury. I think it was you can look at it was… I wouldn’t say it was a luxury. I think that it was a point that it did it. That you went with it. The luxury that I found was going into segregated school that what was I could because it gave me an opportunity to be able to excel based on where I was. So I wouldn’t say that I look at integration as being something luxurious because it doesn’t mean that sitting next to a white person makes me a better person because I can sit next to a white person too but if you’re not about what is true then it’s not going to benefit me anymore than it’s going to a black person, and them not being right doesn’t benefit me. Only want to be around somebody that’s going to add a multiply to you but not subtract away from you. Veronica: What role do you believe the school played in the children’s lives today? Hattie Paulk: if you look at the amount of time a child is in school they have a big impact on them. You know your lucky you go to school from 8 o’clock usually until about three or three thirty. So you’re talking about seven or eight hours that you’re in the class room. You’re going to make a big impact on them. Most of the time when you get out of school you’re on your last leg, you’d be ready to go to bed. So you spend more time in the actually then you do with your family. So whatever you learn in that school is going to have an impact, negative or positive. It’s going to be a big impact. Veronica: My last question. When you say now schools could be depending on what you see can be worse or better do you think it’s a mental issue on the fact that African American kids are doing worse than they were at first? Hattie Paulk: Well when we talk about whether it’s a mental state of mind I don’t think it’s a state of mind that kids are doing that they not where they are supposed to be. That’s a fact. If you look at statistics on the children… I was looking at some suspension rates, and I don’t know the percentage but everything I saw was African American males, African American males. That bothers me. See the male is a seed. When we think in terms of when we have children that man plants that seed in a woman, and they connect up and they grow so if in fact I destroy the seed bearer then I destroyed the race. If in fact our boys don’t learn and they’re headed on the fact that they get the number of African Americans that are graduating Veronica: It’s not a lot Hattie Paulk: It’s not a lot at all. So if we look at where are these African American boys going to? If in fact you aren’t graduating there’s one of two things that you’re going to do. You’re either going to be in jail out on the street selling drugs. So if I go to jail I can’t produce give you a baby. You can’t have children because in some instances become a punk. Because of what’s going on in the jail house, now we’re just being real about this. Ok so therefore this eliminates my manhood. My manhood is taken away. So that means there’s less, less African American boys from you to pick from. So then you chose ones that may not be so nice, then you end up being a loser in the whole scam of things. So when we look at it, we have to realize what’s going on. More prisons are being built across this country, that’s big money in prisons. So I get African Americans if you look at the number of African Americans in prison it’s astonishing. If you’re in prison and you’re not out here then what are you girls going to have? What do you look forward to? Who is it that I can say man I’m going to have a husband. The pickings might become slim. Very slim, so if we look at what’s going on with the African American boys it’s more than just the surface. We better stand up and take heed. Why are all of these African Americans being suspended from school? We know that they act out. We know that, but one of the things is I think it has to do with culture. Not mental, but it has to do with culture. First of all, if an African American is not going to ask you hunny would you like to do this? Am I right…your mom, Diane is not going to ask would you like to do this she wants something done she’s going to say you better get down there and do it. See and in many of the schools you’ve got a lot of white teachers, you’ve got would you like to do this, you’re giving me a decision, when in essence they want you to do this. So we look at the culture the way we speak to each other. It’s a difference. It’s big difference. So I think it’s very important that we need to focus on what’s happening with our African American males. For awhile we had a problem with African American girls. It was so many of the young girls having babies. Thirteen fourteen years old and you’re walking down the street pushing these carriages. There’s nothing to be excited about there’s nothing cute about it because it’s tragedy. Because what happens is if I’m fourteen years old I’ve got a baby, and that means when my child gets to be fourteen, I’ll only be 28 years old. So what happens is that babies raising babies. And if you know what when you think in terms of young girls having kids, think in terms of your prom is out, if you in fact you can go to the dance, your prom is out talking about going to college all of those fun things, you’ve got a baby on your side, unless your mother will take him and raise her. But it’s not fair to your parents to raise your kids. If you make that mistake and you have a baby, then it’s up to you to raise your own kid. What happens is that we’re losing too much… we’re going down instead of up, we’ve got to start going up to meet the standard. I think that it’s important that we begin to instill in our children the importance of education. Education is the key. When you get out of school when you come home from school, do your homework get it done. Don’t get in front of the TV. My ex husband used to call my kid idiot to. That’s all you do is sit in front of that TV and not read. But if you begin to give a child a book and just as Jessie Jackson said a mind is a terrible thing to waste, but as you begin to read that book and things, you have to think. You’ve got to begin to think. And if we need George Washington Carver, where’s our scientist… it’s those kinds of things… just like you girls are doing this radio show. Back then you would not have had the opportunity to do this until you’re in college but you’re getting a head start. But what you’re doing this not just for the two of you. You’ve got to patch it on… it’s like a torch. What I learn I have to pass it to you. Because somewhere down the line something you say something you do will make an impact on somebody else’s life and it’ll turn it around. And as long as you are you are making a difference in somebody else’s life. Then you’re life will not be in vain. Markisha Motton: if you could tell kids anything today what would it be… your advice what would it be … if you could say one thing to all children what would your advice be? Hattie Paulk: oh.. that’s in one word? You can make it a sentence… not a paragraph my advice would be to the young people would be that study. To show yourself approve onto God a workman in need need not be ashamed. Rightly viding the word of truth. So that would be my advice to everybody. One other thing too in closing, I would say one other thing too. In getting all you can in wisdom, but in all that you’re getting I want you to get understanding.
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to the Hattie Paulk interview